How To Cyberpunk (Compuserve Discussion)

I found this file on the Compuserve Forum File Library, thought some of you might find it interesting, enjoy.

[This captures the heart of the "How to be cyberpunk" thread, started in
August 1990, one of the more controversial and thought-provoking threads
seen in the forum. Two threads spun off this one: High-Tech Security
(captured in SECURE.THR) and "What is cyberpunk?", exploring the literary
genre's limits and whether or not it was a fad or a continuing movement.
(See the CYBER?.THR file)]

Mes: 58576
Sub: How to be cyberpunk
From: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

At Gen Con, I played in a Shadowrun game that left me with a bad
taste in my mouth. The adventure was called "Time and Time Again",
and in many ways it was your typical cyberpunk scenario: A team
contacted by an almost faceless employer, sent to penetrate a
corporate HQ to commit mayhem. The adventure revolved around
penetrating the HQ's security, performing our mission, and getting
out alive. But there were three things that upset me:

1) The mission was wetwork. Our job was to go in and kill a lot of
people.

2) There was no betrayal or complexity to the story. Our employer
was honest; he paid in full; no secrets were left unmentioned.

3) We discovered a "time machine" in the middle of the game,
allowing us the chance to go back--or forward--or something.

So why did these upset me? Why did this whole scenario disgust me?
Because it contained many of the cliches which are becoming all-too-
typical in the cyberpunk gaming genre. (This includes R.Talsorian's
Cyberpunk, FASA's Shadowrun, SJG's GURPS Cyberpunk, and any other
game that claims to be cyberpunk, OK?)

First off, why does every adventure have to be a corp
extraction/theft/raid? This is rapidly becoming the cyberpunk
"dungeon-crawl", so often has it been executed.

Secondly (another minor point), cyber is itself becoming a cliche.
This is especially noticeable in Shadowrun, where it looks like
nobody in their right mind keeps their natural eyes. And does
everyone need to have hand razors or rippers? They only appeared on
one person I know of--Molly. In cyberpunk games, however, half the
characters will lobotomize themselves by picking their noses.

***

Now on to the meat of my gripe.

Wetwork. That means the job was to kill people. Assassination,
murder, whatever you call it. Now it is true that cyberpunk
characters kill. Heck, they kill A LOT. But cyberpunk is not an
amoral genre. Characters such as Case, Molly, and Turner are the
good guys. Certainly they live in a world that is darker than our
own, and they make choices which are sometimes morally
repugnant...but for the most part, they struggle to do the right
thing, even if what they choose is just a little "whiter" than their
other options. Just to go on a job to kill people...well, that
might be the kind of thing Molly would have in her background, but
she wouldn't be proud of it and...more importantly...it wouldn't be
the focus of a story about Molly.

Rule One: The cyberpunk genre is NOT amoral. It is a moral genre,
even if the moral action is choosing to break someone's legs rather
than kill him. Subtle differences, shades of gray...but it's the
difference between a playable, empathizable character and one which
is just a cyberkiller.

***

Next. The lack of treachery. Treachery plays a big part in many
cyberpunk stories. This too often separates protagonists from
villains...they are the ones who are betrayed or, better, will not
betray someone who has been straight with them. A cyberpunk game
does not need to have simple treachery in it...that too can become a
cliche. ("Ho hum, when do you think Mr. J's gonna turn on us this
time?") But the go-into-corp-HQ-and-steal-stuff has no complexity,
no bite at all without some added twists. There must be some
reason for the characters to be watching their behinds, for in the
cyberpunk genre, people watch out for themselves only, and screw the
other guy.

Rule Two: Cyberpunk characters should have to fight for survival,
and I don't mean by dodging bullets or planning snafu-proof assaults
on corp towers. Survival in cyberpunk means realizing that everyone
out there wants to use you for their own purposes, and failure to
take this into account can be lethal. Corps do not have codes of
honor. Contacts will not tell you everything they know. THINGS ARE
NOT AS THEY SEEM---if they are, you're not playing a cyberpunk game.

***

The time travel thing bothered me because it just didn't belong in
the game. Now, I enjoy some cross-genre games, and a Shadowrun/time
travel cross-over could be done, and done well--if it was prepared
right. As it was, the sudden introduction of "oh, look, a time
machine" into a rather straightforward grim 'run was ludicrous.
Expecting the players to drop their mission and go on a temporal
joyride just because it was there was just plain stupid--it was
clearly meant to appeal to the players, not the characters. As it
was, we were trying to role-play, so we just blew up the time
machine as part of our "mayhem" contract. The GM was disappointed.

I'm not sure what I should put for rule three. I want to explain to
people what the cyberpunk genre is about...it's not about lots of
gunfire, and it's not about replacing anything that isn't nailed
down with metal and chips. It's not about getting rich, or getting
revenge, or stealing all the data and killing all the gangs. It's
about...

It's about setting free a pair of AIs, just because they're trapped
in Tessier-Ashpool's ice and they want to get loose.

It's about chasing down and capturing a sinner, so that once in your
miserable life you can really sound like a rocker star.

It's about being the only cop on the force who won't go on the take
to turn a blind eye to the slumlord who happens to be the mayor's
brother.

It's about putting your life on the line to rescue Angie Mitchell
from Maas, just because you're the only one she can turn to and you
both know it.

***

Help me out here, people. Lord knows we've spent enough time
talking about rippers vs. slashers and if trees falling in the
astral plane make any noise and how many dice of damage a
cybermixmaster does. It's about time we talk about how to PLAY a
cyberpunk character and how to RUN a cyberpunk game.

Because judging from my experience at Gen Con, you can have every
rule memorized and every cliche in the genre mastered, and end up
running something which is a potent argument for banning gaming as a
morally bankrupt hobby.

(Sorry if I'm a little passionate about this--I hate to see such a
powerful literary area so corrupted.)
Jordan

Mes: 58613
Sub: 58579
From: The Ghoul/RPG SL 71150,2105 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

What? You mean the average person doesn't do cyberpunk correctly?

Why surely gaming is always loyal to the genre it grows from...

Ha...

Far too many people try to run or play the same game no matter the
setting.

This doesn't work too well with cyberpunk.

You've brought up some of the important rules of the genre, I think.

Cyberpunk heroes (PC's) have moral codes. Their codes might be dark
to us, but they always exist and it's the conflict of this code
against a more amoral world that usually creates the conflicts of
the book (When Gravity Fails, Bad Voltage, Eclipse... all examples).
If it's just mercs with built-in weapons... it's not cyberpunk.

Another strong point of cyberpunk that your example adventure seems
to break is the "no escape" rule. There's no way off the streets
without selling out or making the biggest score of your life. Case
is a legend because he manages to retire in peace. Decker
(Bladerunner) can constantly see ads for the space colonies, but
there's no hope given there. The time machine was a GM offering to
side-step this problem, to give the characters an easy out.
Destroying it is a possible option, as cyberpunk characters have
been tricked with the carrot of escape time and time again. Using
it and returning (which is, apparently, this GM's goal) is unlikely
at best.

Mes: 58651
Sub: 58613
From: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344 To: The Ghoul/RPG SL 71150,2105

Ah, good point. I didn't think of that.

Yeah, a lot of the characters struggle to escape (Case, Turner,
Decker). And then there are some who find that escape isn't their
bag (Molly, Bobby). But escape shouldn't be offered as casually
(and ridiculously) as a time machine plopped down in corp HQ.
("Where do you want to go?" --the GM)

Mes: 58687
Sub: 58651
From: The Ghoul/RPG SL 71150,2105 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

Very true.

In fact, barring some amazing success, a way off the street should
be inaccessible.

The time machine is ridiculous.

Mes: 58671
Sub: 58651
From: PaulMonty/MOTM 76347,1542 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

(Well, actually Bobby doesn't start _out_ wanting to escape . . .)

Mes: 58632
Sub: 58579
From: Gary P./Ass't Sysop 73467,2046 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

Ah! But in a nutshell, well, three or four pages of message actually
<g>, you have managed to find the one thing that absolutely ruins
the genre faster than anything...characters who are little more than
extensions of their trigger fingers (or in with Shadowrun,
spellcasting fingers). I have seen some of the games that have been
run locally and at one local Con and they are, for the most part,
exactly what you described (though the time machine is a rather
bizarre inclusion I will admit!).

The one campaign I got to play in, several of the players were
horrified that my character didn't carry and barely knew how to use
a gun! He was a Decker for crying out loud! He loathed physical
confrontation and V1.0 of the character (using GURPS Cyberpunk BTW)
was blind and could only really "see" in the net. The GM cringed a
bit at that and I changed him to a normally sighted character. I was
interested in the character, they were interested in ROF and body
armor. Oh well. They did their thing, I did mine and we met on
occaision to compare info. <shrug> Not a bad campaign, but it
could have been much better.

You are not alone in your observations....unfortunately.

Mes: 58652
Sub: 58632
From: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344 To: Gary P./Ass't Sysop 73467,2046

Call it a large nutshell. <grin> It's the same sort of thing you
see in games like Twilight: 2000 and most any other game that
features guns, guns, n' guns. Some players just just decide to whip
out and compare the sizes of their... rifles.

Hell, there are a decent amount of potential cyberpunk adventures
that won't involve guns at all. How about a pacifist underground
rocker band on tour? Or maybe a media team getting the scoop
somewhere? Or...

Mes: 58721
Sub: 58652
From: Gary P./Ass't Sysop 73467,2046 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

Well, I don't think the "guns, guns and more guns" approach is
necessarily *bad* for games that emphasize warfare (Twi:2000,
Battletech, GURPS Special Forces, etc.) I *DO* think that when GMs
set out to "make it look like that genre" those GMs have only
themselves to blame if it doesn't. In the little example I
mentioned, I should qualify that most of the gun-happy players lost
characters as the GM did enforce the genre (in this group it wasn't
the GM who didn't understand CyberPunk, it was most of the players).
It started to get weird too.

I never experienced first hand the situations,but he admired the RTG
concept of "cyber-psychosis" and incorporated it into the GURPS
based game. Consequently, the first character that 'went platinum'
did so in the midst of his fellows. It scared the hell out of the
players as they saw one character killed and another severely
injured trying to deal with this raging maniac. Now, did they see
this as an indictment of the risks one takes with excess cyberware?
No, of course not! To a player the response was "Damn! I have to get
some more cyberware for my character so I can survive this if it
happens again!" Thereby, they insured that it would happen again by
overloading their
characters and forcing the same situation that forced the first
character into 'the meltdown dance'. Unbelievable.

BTW; as a small notation. This campaign was run before there was a
GURPS Cyberpunk. It was GURPS (the GM likes the character gen and
combat rules) and the Net and "flavor" of RTG's game. It worked.

Mes: 58644
Sub: 58579
From: Bogart 70003,5565 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

While I'm not a cyberpunk gamer (although the genre interests me, I
couldn't get past Gibson's style of writing), I think the problem is
that cyberpunk is a much narrower genre than most of the others.

In Fantasy, for example, there's a lot of leeway for both GMs and
players to work with. The ones that want to roleplay and the ones
that want to wallow in the more superficial ascpects of the genre
can coexist.

But cyberpunk seems to be much less about the superficial aspects.
I'd say that anyone that can play cyberpunk well is to be counted
among the ranks of true roleplayers.

Mes: 58645
Sub: 58579
From: Farno Bullfeathers 76407,3472 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

Cyberpunk rule number 1:

There are no rules.

But on the other hand, your absolutely right Jordan. The bloody
handed and simple-minded game you were forced to endure was not
Cyberpunk. As in any genre-game, an unimaginative or simply
unenlightened game master can completely de-rail the game. The game
you described sounds more like a GURPS SpecialOps (or some other
Merc type game) with a little cybertech thrown in.

As for what Cyberpunk IS, I've always seen an essential part being
(in literature) the exploration of what impact technological
advancements have on our society, mostly focusing on the street
society but not neccessarily.

It is unfortunate that some people just don't get what good
cyberpunk is, but hey that's one of the things that makes it such an
interesting genre.

Just keep yelling at 'em when they get screwed up and maybe they'll
learn. (But don't hold your breath. <grin>)

-> Farno Cyberfeathers
The worlds first (and hopefully only) cybernetic hobbit.

Mes: 58672
Sub: 58579
From: PaulMonty/MOTM 76347,1542 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

My rules of running cyberpunk:

1) NPCs. Have a lot of 'em, and give 'em lives. Have a contact
refuse info, for some outside reason. Kill off a tangential NPC
(like a club bouncer is suddenly, one night, not there). This
doesn't yet make cyberpunk, but it adds to the darkness, and keeps
the players edgy.

2) Failure. If this job was _easy_, we wouldn't be payin' ya so
much. There's not a real good success rate. _Especially_ with those
corp 'runs. Excuse me, but if *I* was a major corp, I'd have plenty
o' defenses . . .

3) Style. Hey, wanna know a real good book to read for cyberstyle?
_Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas_ by Hunter S. Thompson. In cyberpunk
keepin' crazy can keep ya alive. Only the sane die without a legacy.

4) Rip-offs. Not betrayal (quite), but minor shady dealing. 40 nuyen
cups of synthecoffee. Weapons that malfunction. Helmets that break
on impact. Unstable bullets. Rarely enough to kill someone outright,
but . . . Keeps 'em edgy.

5) Betrayal. And interesting betrayal, at that. None of this "oops,
I'm not payin' ya" stuff. More like "Oh, look Dr. Von Fursten! A
band of mercenaries has forced their way into our laboratory and
become caught in our little net. Just like you predicted." When I
think of a really _interesting_ betrayal, I drop it in.

6) Cybertech. Sorry, but replacing old eyes with new eyes loses
something. Not sure how to define it, but I take away some
peripheral vision. And as for other cyberware - - if maintenance
ain't done, things could get ugly. And see rip-offs, above. (Yeah,
you got a problem with back-alley rippers? Sounds genre to me!)

7) Books. Before I run a session, I read at least a chapter of some
cyberbook, or semi-cyberbook (like _Wrack & Roll_, or _Little
Heroes_). Keeps me up on the language of the street. Which is more
or less vital to a good description.

8) PC betrayal. I don't "plant" a PC spy in the group. Ever. But I
*do* tempt the PCs occasionally with bribes from NPCs that involve
party betrayal. Not anything really major. Just "borrowing" the
ork's assault cannon for an hour. <grin> And even if the PC refuses
(as happens "most of the time"), there's still an air of "a dollar
more, and you'da been dead meat, chummer" within the party itself.

Well, those're my rules. They seem to work all right.

Mes: 58723
Sub: 58579
From: Noel 71660,2034 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

It's taken me one attempt at the corp-infiltration-and-steal-
sumthin scenario before I realize just how godawfully trite it is.
And, momentarily, cyberpunk seems to be a very narrow, monotonous
genre. That's not so.
There are people who don't want to work, who don't want to
think. It just so happens that the infiltration-and-steel premise is
a very elementary, narrow-minded venue, and some go for it. In
essence, they're taking Gibson stuff, but THAT one stuff and nothing
else. They take for granted, for instance, the electronic network,
that sterling trademark of cyberpunk that, in itself, should prove
quite a hindrance to anyone who buys their huge-barreled rifles with
a crestick.
You've given a lot of alternative scenarios that are great and
yet are still true to Gibson's world, if that's the fare some folks
like (I do). "Wetware", I agree, is not prime cyberpunk stuff. It
comes from taking the weapons of the 21st Century and hopping back
to xx BC and monster-bashing down in dungeon level 17. This
"Wetware" stuff just CAN'T happen in 2050. If you're extracting a
research scientist from Maas you better be sure that the nukes they
don't seem to hesitate using won't hurt you.
And cyberpunk is a crazy world; you just can't be a character
living out there hustling and staying sane at the same time. It's
not all biz, you have to LIVE. Gotta wife? A family? A lovelife? You
sure can't go play in bed with all that chrome in you 'cause you're
too heavy; forget about staying amorous for two minutes because you
ain't go not Essence left. Science in cyberpunk, as Bruce Sterling
put it, "is a sheet of mutating radiation pouring through a crowd, a
jam-packed Global Bus roaring wildly up an exponential slope."
Cyberpunk isn't all tech; rather, it's the human condition with tech
the background radiation, irradiating us. Passion. That's how easy
it is to stay true to the genre: don't get lost in the machoism and
chrome fetishism that will only get you killed in some dark alley.

Mes: 58738
Sub: 58723
From: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344 To: Noel 71660,2034

Brilliantly put. And I'm surprised to hear you call the corp-
infiltrate scenario "trite". I found SRN to be perhaps the best
cyberpunk game I have yet seen executed. The claustrophobic
alliance between the 'runners and the cops was terrific and so well
done.

The "corp tower crawl" can be trite, and it is definitely on the
verge of being overused to death. But it's also a useful lead-in to
a darker, more interesting adventure. (As the poor WOTers will
learn... <g>)

Did I mention that the start of that godawful Shadowrun game had us
meet our employer in a BAR? And that my Dwarf had a Tolkienesque
name ("Glintar" or something like that) and carried, for no good
reason, an AXE?

Mes: 58747
Sub: 58738
From: Noel 71660,2034 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

Ah, the tavern and the dwarf. An equally overused setting, in
my experience, in another world. Of course "trite" hasn't been
invented yet in that reality, so players use <GRROOOAAAANNN>
instead.

Mes: 59030
Sub: 58738
From:Alex von Thorn/RPG SL 70411,351 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

(There should be no bars in Shadowrun. There should be dives,
nightclubs, "spots", etc.)

(But heck, the fact that we can even say what "cyberpunk" is, makes
it trite and passe. Nothing wrong with cliches, just for
familiarity. But any GM should bring something new to the game,
should try to expand the genre a little bit. One of the messages of
cyberpunk literature is that the only constant in life is
exponentially increasing change, usually in ways we don't expect.)

Mes: 58726
Sub: 58723
From: PaulMonty/MOTM 76347,1542 To: Noel 71660,2034

And what about a seemingly natural alternative to the generic corp
run: The Bodyguards? I don't see that scenario much, but it lends
itself wonderfully to the genre, particularlay if the group is to
"Guard this NPC with your lives. Oh, but don't let him go over there
. . ."

(Loved your response, BTW)

Mes: 58746
Sub: 58726
From: Noel 71660,2034 To: PaulMonty/MOTM 76347,1542

That perspective of a corp-run has gone through my mind before; in
fact, I was thinking of having SRN run its first game like that. I
put it aside, however, because I felt that the GM and his hidden,
NPC group of runners will do the majority of the work, with the PC
runners --the bodyguards-would just sit there and wait for trouble
to come. This is not so, of course, for all players, but it's the
sort of thing that could and would probably happen if you had THE
kind of gaming group that started this thread in the first place. :)

Mes: 58835
Sub: 58746
From: PaulMonty/MOTM 76347,1542 To: Noel 71660,2034

Actually, I was thinking of a really experimental game I coran at a
local gaming con (which I also co-ran) last summer. Two PC parties.
Two GMs. Two computers: My IBM, and the other GM's Atari ST.
Connected by a null-modem cable. Ocassional real-time interaction
while one group prepared the defenses the other group planned to
knock down. Worked okay, actually, although it required a _lot_ of
setup.

(PS: The bodyguards won handily)

Mes: 58937
Sub: 58835
From: Noel 71660,2034 To: PaulMonty/MOTM 76347,1542

Ah, well, with a slick presentation like that, I'd guess everybody
would just love to play! <g>

Noel (Keyboard fetishist)

Mes: 58834
Sub: 58738
From: PaulMonty/MOTM 76347,1542 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

And what's wrong with a bar as a meeting place? My favorite Mr. J.
routine forces the players to slink, one by one, into a randomly
selected bar and conspiratorily order "A Triple Water." Then they
sit down and Mr. J. slithers, erm, sneaks in. Perfectly normal.

Of course, the PCs get 'informed' earlier that they're wanted . . .

Mes: 58853
Sub: 58834
From: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344 To: PaulMonty/MOTM 76347,1542

Well, these PCs were also "informed".

But it was still damn STUPID.

Why would this supposedly smart Johnson want to meet with a bunch of
semi-trustworthy (at best) shadowrunners to discuss murder and
mayhem in a public bar? Why not somewhere more private, somewhere
that can already have been swept for bugs, have security guards
standing by to pull Mr. J's ass out should the 'runners not be
house-broken after all, somewhere where a fraggin' GANG can't just
walk in off the street and eavesdrop.

Geez.

Mes: 58865
Sub: 58853
From: PaulMonty/MOTM 76347,1542 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

Well, when *I* use a bar, I don't have NPCs making obvious "Go kill
Fred and bring me his chopped-off limbs" statements. And, as for
sweeping for bugs, and having security guards - - exactly where is
it written that all security folks wear uniforms? The barkeep,
bouncer, and _every_ customer is a paid employee of _Classified
Corp._. Yes, it's expensive, but it mostly serves as a way for the
regular employees to relax in a company-provided environment. A
perfectly fine place to meet people.

Things are not always what they seem. <Glare>

Mes: 58965
Sub: 58865
From: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344 To: PaulMonty/MOTM 76347,1542

That could work. That could work out well. ("Hmm, you notice as
the bartender serves you a Corona that a smartgun link glitters in
his palm. Odd, unless the bar is equipped with a 'smart-tap'
perhaps.")

But that was not the case in this game.

Mes: 58854
Sub: 58579
From: Beo,Les,Ama, et AL 73327,2455 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

There's a concept, pulled from Grail myths, called the Chapel
Perilous. A number of authors have developed the idea in various
directions, including Robert Anton Wilson who, somewhere, does a
great job of reframing it using contemporary idioms.

Anyway, the Chapel Perilous is something that everyone must enter.
The threat is that you will become what you despise. The objective
is to get through with a least part of you soul intact. Imho,
cyberpunk is in the tradition of film noir, Raymond Chandler, and
similar American 'pulp' in that it deals directly the Chapel
Perilous.

It's issues are perilous issues - where do you find truth in a web
of lies; integrity in world of betrayal; love in a world of
relationships of convenience or of relationships that can be
shattered by external circumstances; and human values in a world of
people who are half machines either physically or by virtue of being
absorbed into their function within the mechanism called a
corporation. The perilousness is in fighting the enemy without
becoming the enemy. If you become hard because you need that to
fight the hard in the defense of soft, you lose -- partially. Where
is the line which, when crossed turns you into your enemy. How does
a successful freedom fighter not become a tyrant, as all most all
successful freedom do? And in the face of tyranny, how can you be
anything else but a freedom fighter. (Granted, most of find a less
dramatic Chapel Perilous - more a stucco bungalo than a Chartres.)

The thing is, of course, that there are not yet answers to any of
those questions, so cyberpunk, as with the likes of Travis McGee
books, can only attempt to give depth and luminosity to the
questions. The answers will come, if they do, as cultural and
personal transformation. Cyberpunk as a literature and as a rpg
genre is a part of all that.

Mes: 58966
Sub: 58854
From: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344 To: Beo,Les,Ama, et AL 73327,2455

Well put!

So why do *we* have to be the ones to try to write how-to-play-
cyberpunk instructions? It seems that certain game designers have
been too busy writing up stats for assorted things to actually
bother to tell people what cyberpunk is about.

On their heads be it.

Mes: 59424
Sub: 58966
From: Tom (FASA) 71061,744 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

Oh?

A certain Game Designer
(If we could agree on the definition of cyberpunk I'm sure it would
be much easier to decide how to play the game, at least for the
group of people who agree on that definition.)

Mes: 59034
Sub: 58966
From:Alex von Thorn/RPG SL 70411,351 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

It's not the game designers' job to define the genre! I agree with
many of the points made in this discussion, but no one has given a
definitive definition of the genre, and I don't think one is
possible.

Speaking from personal experience, I can assure you that different
writers can read the same books and come to quite different
conclusions about them.

I wouldn't *want* someone to tell readers "this is what cyberpunk
is". Either they're into it or they're not; if they are, they'll
know it when they see it, and if they aren't, there are much more
erudite authors out writing books than writing game rules; writing
novels and designing games are two very different skills. A very
few people (like Mike Ford) cross the line well, but in general we
should leave writing to the authors and game rules to the game
designers, I think.

Effinger will only grudgingly allow the word "cyberpunk" to refer to
his books; he says he's doing his own thing, not trying to fit any
label. Gibson says that "cyberpunk" begins and ends with the
Neuromancer trilogy, period; it's hard to argue with.

If you pick up a fantasy game, without any other referents to
fantasy, well, you'll end up dungeon-crawling. You won't learn what
"fantasy" literature is from the game; that just isn't the game's
job.

The only job the game designer has is to create workable rules which
allow players to role-play a setting they are already aware of, or
can research on their own. I don't want anyone to lecture me on
their opinion of cyberpunk, because almost by definition their
opinion is going to be limited and restricting. And given the
simple economics of game design, pages wasted on such lectures are
pages unavailable for rules.

There's nothing wrong with including "attitude" in how you create
the text and graphics, but that's a different thing. At most, a
game designer's responsibility is to supply a bibliography.
"Cyberpunk" does not depend on games to define it, and it would be
an act of hubris for a designer to try to impose his definition on
it.

Mes: 59110
Sub: 59035
From:Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344 To: Alex von Thorn/RPG SL 70411,351

Some good points there, with good reasons behind them.

Perhaps, then, the designers should put detailed bibliographies in
their games (I seem to recall a few works cited in RTG, some more in
SJG, none in Shadowrun). And perhaps the "lecture" should be
modified to something along the lines of "Look, if you want to
really get the most out of this game, you have to immerse yourself
in the genre. Cyberpunk isn't about shooting things or grafting
enough chrome onto your body to supply the Russian Army, or playing
Pac-Man in the Matrix. Cyberpunk has those things on the surface,
but a little reading and research will show you how much more
complex and enjoyable your games can be."

Yes?

This certainly won't stop the bad GMs from churning out drek, but at
least it reduces the chance that I have to spend $2 and four hours
at a convention thinking to myself "Is this really *all* this guy
could get out of all those wonderful books and movies?"

Mes: 59180
Sub: 59110
From:Alex von Thorn/RPG SL 70411,351 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

There are good GMs and bad GMs in any genre. While I think it's
presumptuous to try to say definitively "Cyberpunk is such-and-
such...", a more appropriate goal would be a short chapter of GM
guidelines along the lines of "these are tips that would be useful
in running cyberpunk games".

Which, of course, GURPS Cyberpunk already has, at least. (Shadowrun
has some of this in its "Behind the Scenes" chapter; these are the
only two I have handy for comparison.)

So it's already being done. Could it be done better? Without a
doubt, given more time and money (i.e. more pages and better
writing). Good GMing can't really be taught; the best a rulebook
can do is give some pointers in the right direction. But some
people don't read the advice chapters in the back of books,
precisely because they don't contain rules, and people
(unsurprisingly) read rulebooks mainly for rules.

I think providing a two-page bibliography is supposed to be a hint
to look up at least a few of the references. The only reason GURPS
Cyberpunk's bibliography is as short as it is is space limitations
(as usual).

I think your complaint has much more to do with the broader question
of "how to get good GMs". GMing is a difficult task, and some
people don't do it well; national conventions tend to improve the
odds of getting a good GM at random, but they don't improve the odds
a whole lot. There's only so much a rulebook can accomplish, no
matter how well written.

Mes: 59201
Sub: 59180
From:Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344 To: Alex von Thorn/RPG SL 70411,351

Well, my complaint is also with players who don't care to understand
the genre. But again, we all know what the two universal constants
of the universe are. And hydrogen doesn't affect the games. <g>

I don't consider it "presumptuous" to define cyberpunk. For me to
do so, probably. (I haven't done exhaustive research.) For game
designers to do so, possibly, depending on that designers level of
research and background. But, on the other hand, I'm familiar with
excellent essays on the nature of cyberpunk. Most recognizable will
be Bruce Sterling's foreword in "Mirrorshades: The Cyberpunk
Anthology". A little digging will produce articles by him in other
magazines, as well.

I also highly recommend articles and papers by Dr. Brooks Landon,
formerly of the English Department at the U of Iowa. Dr. Landon has
taught and written extensively on the subject of cyberpunk
literature and films, brilliantly placed within the context of the
entire post-modernist area of literature, film, art, and music.
(Did you know that Gibson's characters (from M.L.O. and a story in
Burning Chrome) who "sculpt" in machinery are based on a real-life
"cyber-artist"? I can't recall his name off-hand, but I've seen
films of his moving-machine sculptures, and they are truly bizarre.
Yes, he does indeed make art which destroys itself. Now *THAT* is a
cyberpunk statement!) Understanding cyberpunk as the science-
fiction offshoot of post-modernism puts a lot of things into
perspective, and enables one to pull imagery and ideas in from other
sources to flesh out the cyberpunk world.

Mes: 59503
Sub: 59201
From: Mike Naylor 76074,1631 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

.leaning against a cold concrete piloti, the corporate heaven
driving high into the midnight sky, the stars lost behind dark
clouds. The streets are cast black and white, lightning followed by
the crash of thunder, the rain hot against the sable asphalt.
Looking along the streetside, dark eyes behind deep blue
mirrorshades, walking then, a predator in the sleeping city. A wolf
in a land of machivelliean princes, whose games would make even that
lost lord shudder...

"what is this cyberpunk, eh?

"Yes, chummer, it is presumptuous to define her, but not cause one
body be a writer an' another draws the games...

"It's 'cause...

"'Cause at her dark soul she's not a what, she's a how, she's a
feeling, she's life at the edge, tasting the sharpness of the
blade...

"She ain't this..."

A tight fist, followed by the deadly snik of the long wolve's claws,
three high-carbon steel blades snapping out, looking for blood to
cleanse their shine.

"Heh...

"Its just what the solo's call it. Chrome. Nothin' more. Nothin'
less. Chrome. Flash. Just like the torn world and the corpzecs and
the little heroes and the broken poliblocs. You can have all that
dreck, boss, mix it up, an' what do yah got? Anythin', boy,
anythin'. Star wars, with it robots an' politics' an' darth vader
kept half alive by cybernetics. The six million dollar man, the
bionic woman, their boy elroy and their two an' a half euro dog.
Wetware, meat missions, corporate extractions, yah can have it
all...

"Sure, yah need the chrome. It's part of the look. It's that high
tech edge.

"But that don't make her punk.

"She's the environment, little lost one, the environment.

"She's the darkness that follows you. Her so hot kiss upon your
throat that moment before her teeth break the skin. The threat that
is around the next corner. She is scheming plots, never only what
she seems, the soft touch of black velvet wrapped about the muzzle
of a gun.

"She's the attitude, she's the Edge.

"She's faster than you, meaner than you, tougher and crueller than
you. But you've got a chipped linked Masamune 12mm heavy pistol,
and you know you can beat her.

"That's the attitude.

"Skate or die."

He turns, looking down over his shoulder, one finger tracing the
razor edge of a wolver blade.

"You remember that, don't you. It's what made Bad Voltage so good.
Voltage is perhaps the best example of being at the Edge...

"An' then what happens when yah lose it.

"Poor little Linx. He forgot how to skate."

Turning back, he just chuckles once, a cold and lonely echo beneath
frozen neon colours.

"Then again, you stopped skatin' long ago, didn't you? If even you
ever knew how. What do you expect from the guy who tried to foist
the Benevolent Brotherhood of Cyberpunk Solos and Gentlemen Cowboys
upon an unsuspecting world?

"I don't know what you were tryin' to do, but it sure as hell wasn't
punk."

There is a splash, a sheet of water flying, the oil in it fracturing
into a million colours, as a truck rumbles fast down the sprawl
street.

"Thats it. Yah know her or yah don't, chombatta.

"Atmosphere and attitude. If'n yah got that, yah got it all. It
don't matter how yah do it, but yah gotta look good doin' it. Ask
the folks at RTG, at Fasa. They know.

"Razor's edge...

"An if yah got that, well you could even put elves an' orcs on the
city streets, an' it would still be cyberpunk."

..and then gone, a hunting in the lonely forest of concrete, plastic
and steel...

barracuda mike

Mes: 59506
Sub: 59201
From: Mike Naylor 76074,1631 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

oh yah.... and that definitly ISN'T jordan ole barracuda's talking
to.

Mes: 59282
Sub: 59201
From: Noel 71660,2034 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

It would seem cyberpunk is not yet dead as mainstream
literature (was it ever, really?) I can't remember who stated that
it was...

Your example concerning that Gomi no Sensei who made
machines out of industrial refuse is a fine example; I didn't know
it was a fact until you mentioned it, but it did not surprise me at
the least. Just the thing anyone would expect nowadays, because,
make no mistake, now IS Post-Modernism, and it's alive and kicking
(if we consider it an event rather than a process).

So CB writers must still be out there, too, hybernating,
feeling sick 'cuz they ate too much.<g> They'll be hungry for more,
though, later.

A locally-sponsored footnote, is all. :)

Mes: 59379
Sub: 59282
From: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344 To: Noel 71660,2034

Noel, Noel, Noel...

<sigh>

Mainstream literature is *not* dead at all. Have you read "Tracks"
by Louise Erdrich? How about the new Joyce Carol Oates book? (If
you do, tell me how it is...I haven't picked that one up yet!)

There are dozens upon dozens of excellent authors who you would
classify as "mainstream". And I don't mean the fluff that gets on
the NYT's list. (Although Dean Koontz's books are superbly
entertaining thrillers, with a bit of a tip of the hat to science
fiction influencdes.)

Cyberpunk, on the other hand, *is* dead, at least in the book form.
Gibson went on to other things. Ditto for most of the other primary
authors in the movement. There are still some books being written
that you might call cyberpunk, but these are mostly by the less-
talented Johnny-come-latelies. (A better example being Daniel Keys
Moran...a more-or-less decent writer with some annoying
idiosyncracies and the ability to tell a decent adventure yarn).

Now, really...would it make *any* sense for cyberpunk to become an
old, hallowed tradition?

Mes: 59555
Sub: 59379
From: Noel 71660,2034 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

Re Cyberpunk turned into an hallowed tradition. Uh-uh. Not at
all. Live hard, die fast. That's the spirit. <g> What I was trying
to say was that, since cb draws its roots from the elements of post-
modernism and extrapolates from these, couldn't it be that cb
remains eternally humming just as our society does? (Art and music
and cultures are mutating folks, getting weirder. Artifical
insemination and DNA-samples-as-used-in-courts are building up
steam. Today IS cyberpunk.)

After Sterling's and Gibson's works stopped, I stopped too.
Not completely, but I got impatient with the newbies. Gibson spoiled
me, I guess. Perhaps Gibson has retired his Sprawl Series, but,
unlike the writers who spin yarns for us of aliens and far-flung
galaxies and time-travel, cb authors are living their literary
worlds everyday to some extent. Maybe Gibson is loosing steam now,
but I think he's going to be having urges in a few years, after all
that cb has extrapolated so far come to past. <:)

Mes: 59418
Sub: 59379
From: The Ghoul/RPG SL 71150,2105 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

Well, there's still GA Effinger and the Madrid books (and computer
game), the third of which is still to come out. The second wasn't
as good as the first, but was still excellent Cyberpunk.

Mes: 59425
Sub: 59379
From: Tom (FASA) 71061,744 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

I'm not sure that you could say 'cyberpunk' was ever born, so how
could it be dead?? One can certainly not mark it's birth with
Gibson. Ever read or seen 'A Clockwork Orange'?

Tom

Mes: 59492
Sub: 59425
From: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344 To: Tom (FASA) 71061,744

I've seen it several times.

Like any "genre" or "movement", cyberpunk didn't appear out of thin
air one day and quietly disappear four years later. But we
Americans seem a bit anal-retentive when it comes to marking
beginnings, endings, and the like. (Notice how the entire world just
completely changed itself from the 80s to the 90s overnight? <g>
And now everyone's talking about what the 90s are like, though we're
not even a year into the decade.)

Taking definitions at face value, there have been books that could
be classified as cyberpunk dating all the way back to the 50s.
(Bester's The Stars My Destination is a particularly strong
contender, as is much of Philip K. Dick's and J.G. Ballard's work.)
And, as Ghoul points out, there is still and probably always will be
new stuff coming out which has a cyberpunk feel to it.

But cyberpunk had its up and down curve, peaking around the mid-
1980s. Neuromancer was the marker point of cyberpunk ascending to
public recognition, the marker of cyberpunk's slow decline might
have been Mona Lisa Overdrive. Or maybe the Mirrorshades anthology,
which came out just as the authors featured within were moving on to
other things.

Mes: 59086
Sub: 58966
From: PaulMonty/MOTM 76347,1542 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

Ah! New comment! Came to me while working, see what you think:

In Neuromancer, and such, there's a hard, crazy underworld. Full of
killers. Full of barely-hidden despair. And a couple heroes.

In Hardwired, there's a few heroes. And a lot of hard, crazed
killers.

My point: When a GM sets up a C-Punk world, the NPCs are pretty much
all the hard, insane killing-types, with a few blackmailing evilguys
for the corps. There's lots of corp-to-corp combat, with the street
people taking the casualties. NOW: the players have an option to
either A) Be Heroes, or B) Be Non-Heroes.

There's a lot more non-heroes in the books, but the books focus on
the heroes. But without the sense of fighting the odds for your
cause, without an attempt to find a moral code in all the killing,
you lose what makes the books so good: you turn a promising genre
into another mercenary game with neat tech.

The GM shouldn't make the only path available to the PCs be the one
of heroism; on the contrary, he should make it extremely difficult.
But, if the GM is doing his job, the path will be there. And if the
PCs are truly trying to role-play cyberpunk (as opposed to role-
playing *in a cyberpunk world*), they'll trod that path even unto
death.

Mes: 59137
Sub: 58966
From: Paul Floriani 72411,2270 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

And, on a side note, I'm not sure how well the cyberpunk genre maps
to PC *groups*. Let's show a literary example, and the result of
transposing it directly to a game:
---
The (street samurai/solo/awesome fighting machine/whatever) proceeds
quietly down the corridor of the corporate building. She encounters
three fairly competent security guards. She defeats them but is
badly injured in the process. [Neuromancer]
---
Six to eight PC's (let's assume roughly half of which are armed in a
similar manner as the character above) proceed quietly down the
corridor of the corporate building. They encounter three fairly
competent security guards. Five seconds later, as they wonder how
long it will take the janitors to scrape the bodies off the walls,
they continue on.
---
Now, I agree with Jordan that the corporate raid is not what
Cyberpunk is all about, but it IS an element of it, especially as
the "corporation" is probably the ultimate foe of the "heroes" in
the story. THIS is genre -one can blame the woe's of the campaign
world on corporate greed, the corporation is the primary temptation
to "lure" the PC's away from their "heroic" goals, and the corporate
mentality squashes the concept of heroism.

So...how does one make the above scenario challenging for the PC's?
   1) Split up the PC's. I can hear the GM's screaming now. :)
   2) Add more guards. I'm sure the corporate accounting department
would LOVE to hear that idea.
   3) Make the guards tougher. See above.
   4) Use robots as guards. Yeah, Robocop is cyberpunk, isn't it?
(I hear all the little cyber-munchkins cheering now. :)
   5) Add traps. Hey, that's what the decker/cowboy/whatever is out
there for, right? (My NEXT post will pose the problem of
integrating those computer jockeys into a cyberpunk campaign).

I'm really interested in this thread, just thought I'd throw in
a new angle on it. How does one transpose the cyberpunk literature
(which features usually one, possibly two or three "heroes" in a
story), to a PC group?

Mes: 59154
Sub: 59137
From: Noel 71660,2034 To: Paul Floriani 72411,2270

Yes, that's one way to do it. In Count Zero (Gibson), Maas Biolabs
GmbH had some type of thermonuclear device on hand. They were
willing to go that far to protect a company scientist. How much more
a corporate building housing secrets?

Corporations survive and grow wealthy in the cyberpunk universe
because, all high-fallutin' thoughts aside, they are smart,
efficient, and effective. A nuke detonation is not seen as a
violation of an area's sovereignity anymore; it is an unfortunate
alternative to terminate a harmful complication from corporate
liability. :) Once the GM makes it clear that in the players aren't
the only one breathing the cyberpunk world, they'll think wise
before charging a corporate facility again.

Mes: 59209
Sub: 59154
From: Paul Floriani 72411,2270 To: Noel 71660,2034

Yes, but even if there's a nuke on site, that's what the netrunner
is for! "Okay...the big boom is off, changes locked out for 30
minutes - have fun, chummers." I know it's not that easy, but you
get the idea.

Actually, the corps aren't supposed to be as cold and nasty as the
PC's - they're supposed to be COLDER and NASTIER! That's what makes
the PC's heroes. *My* comment was that if the corps fortified each
and every significant site they own with enough defenses to stop a
GROUP of PC's, the security bill would bankrupt 'em within a year!

Mes: 59274
Sub: 59209
From: Noel 71660,2034 To: Paul Floriani 72411,2270

Well, ok, you're right about the security costs if they did
that. Why would our heroic runners, however, hook on to a place that
can't afford a nuke<grin>? I mean, DANGER is where the MONEY is. <g>

Awww...forget it. Maybe nerve gas ventilation overrides will
do just fine... :)

Mes: 59163
Sub: 59137
From: The Ghoul/RPG SL 71150,2105 To: Paul Floriani 72411,2270

You're very right that the atmosphere of Cyberpunk must be "I'm in
danger".

When the PC's arent' threatened by their opponents, it becomes a
different kind of heroic situation altogether.

Splitting the group up is one of the best ways to do this.

Massivly outnumbering them also works.

Oh, and don't make any comments on "how do I get the netrunner into
things" until after you've seen C2020.

Because RTG just found a real nice (if not entierly technically
explainable) mechanism for that in the Menu, a new option that
allows 'Runners with Cellular Modems to use the net to take control
of nearby gadgets (open doors, operate heavy machinery, deactivate
alarms... All the better things <g>)

Mes: 59210
Sub: 59163
From: Paul Floriani 72411,2270 To: The Ghoul/RPG SL 71150,2105

Splitting the group up is a GREAT way to make things challenging for
the PC's. It's also a great way to give the poor GM in your typical
ftf game a splitting headache, especially if he tries to maintain a
fast enough pace so that the players don't have time to get bored
while it's not their turn. If you can do it, you're a better GM than
I, Gunga Din. (Actually, you probably are anyway, but you get the
point, right? :)

Massively outnumbering the PC's is also entirely possible -
corporations probably have armies that can crush a PC group.
HOWEVER, unless the corp is EXPECTING an attack on a site, they
probably can't afford to maintain a force large enough to stop a
group of 6-8 determined people who are among the best there are at
what they do. Of course, it's possible that they ARE expecting such
an attack (as according to the discussion of treachery above), but
if not, I couldn't really justify that much security on a building
unless it was REALLY important (main or regional headquarters,
etc.). Of course, that just might be where the players need to go.
:)

Hmmmm...I'll have to get a copy of C2020, then. I may actually want
to play a netrunner now! :)

Mes: 59181
Sub: 59137
From: Alex von Thorn/RPG SL 70411,351 To: Paul Floriani 72411,2270

Right. What you said. The idea of a six-person group is just...
well, it ain't Gibson or Effinger. <g>

Anyway, personally, I think it's much too simplistic to view the
corporations as the "bad guys". I see cyberpunk as having a view of
"techno-feudalism", in which the great majority of people cling to
centers of authority to protect them in the rising tide of chaos.
When governments break down, megacorporations are the next best
source of stability; most people who support and work for them would
have much more important priorities than mere dollars (or nuyen).

The "we cyberpunks/electronic vandals/whatever are good; those corps
are bad" is just much too black-and-white for my taste. (That's why
I found "Islands in the Net" to be an interesting story where people
had real and understandable motivations, while "Bad Voltage" was
just unreadable nihilist garbage that I couldn't force myself
through more than a couple of chapters. Like I said, different
people will have different opinions. <g>)

I just don't see a long-term series of adventures with more than two
or three continuing characters; I don't see an ongoing campaign with
more than one, really. *But*, I see nothing wrong with running a
campaign "with cyberpunk elements"; that's the only way to keep the
thing fresh anyway, instead of trying to slavishly stick to a
formula which is already trite, obsolete, and unoriginal.

Mes: 59211
Sub: 59181
From: Paul Floriani 72411,2270 To: Alex von Thorn/RPG SL 70411,351

>The "we cyberpunks/electronic vandals/whatever are good; those
corps are >bad" is just much too black-and-white for my taste.

Agreed. There is a fundamental conflict though, between a person
who "belongs" to a corporation - "I do what *they* want," and one
who doesn't - "I do what *I* want." Laura Webster was one of the
former class, and while her story was interesting, it isn't exactly
what your typical cyberpunk campaign is about...they're about the
outsiders. I think the reason for that is that (I'm guessing here)
most cyberpunk players like to play characters that are outsiders,
because they have "freedom" in a world dominated by corporations.
It makes for a heady excitement, and challenge as they try to KEEP
their freedom, possibly even "escape" to a freer place.

I agree with your opinion about the viability of a "long term"
"pure" cyberpunk campaign. Sorta like Paranoia or Toon. :)

Mes: 59182
Sub: 59181
From: PaulMonty/MOTM 76347,1542 To: Alex von Thorn/RPG SL 70411,351

At the San Diego Comic Con, I myself witnessed a Shadowrun game
being run with 18 players. I don't understand what an army roaming
through the streets has to do with cyberpunk . . .

Mes: 59205
Sub: 59182
From: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344 To: PaulMonty/MOTM 76347,1542

That *could* work. If you have the most recent Shadowrun flyer,
there's a nice little story in there about a gang rumble in Seattle.
Run a game with, say, eighteen players representing members of
different gangs, a couple of cops caught in the middle; give
everyone some special motivations and background (the guy who wants
to take over the gang at the right moment, the guy who is a mole
from a rival gang, etc.) and give them the freedom of the city for a
night.

Done right, that could be a VERY interesting game, and one that
breaks away from the corp-infiltrate traditions. Reminds me of "The
400 Boys" (title?) from "Mirrorshades".

Actually, I'm starting to like the idea a lot now. <g>

Mes: 59216
Sub: 59205
From: PaulMonty/MOTM 76347,1542 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

Hmm, when you put it that way, it _does_ sound good . . . Certainly
not ftf, but CIS . . .

Mes: 59241
Sub: 59216
From: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344 To: PaulMonty/MOTM 76347,1542

Oh, I think it would be *great* ftf. Of course, you'd need two or
three GMs, but set it up like this...

1) Each player gets a character sheet with a page or so of simple
background, motivations, and goals. Everyone should have something
a little more complex than "shoot the other guys". Maybe some guys
have grudge targets within their own gang to take out in the heat of
battle. Maybe some want to make connections for drugs or black
market tech. Maybe there are two brothers fighting on opposite
sides who don't want each other to get hurt. You get the idea.

2) Use the most streamlined, fast combat system you can. Forget
Shadowrun. Make it Cyberpunk and streamline it even more.

3) Set up the whole thing as miniatures on a grid or model (for the
expense-account games, or whoever gets to keep the FASA dioramas
<g>) with characters starting in pre-determined locations.

4) Then let 'em go at it. The two gangs approach each other. Will
the leaders shout threats? Will they try to talk? Will one ambush
the other side? Meanwhile, what are all the gangers doing---are some
angling for positions to get the best shots at their fave targets?
Are some trying to sneak away? Are some whispering among
themselves, talking mutiny?

If I had the props and the extra GMs, I'd love to run this one.

Mes: 59289
Sub: 59241
From: PaulMonty/MOTM 76347,1542 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

It does sound interesting, but . . . can you _imagine_ the number of
secret notes and private meetings? It'd put Paranoia to shame!
(Well, okay, it sounds more interesting now . . .)

Mes: 59203
Sub: 59181
From:Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344 To: Alex von Thorn/RPG SL 70411,351

Alex and Paul,

RE: Groups of cyberpunks.

This, I think, is as much a problem with gaming as it is with
cyberpunk. The nature of gaming (with few exceptions) is groups of
4-8 players, each running a single individual, this collection of
individuals forming a cohesive group of some sort, attempting to
complete overlapping goal(s).

There are variations, but that is the basic mode of role-playing
games.

Some types of game lend themselves easily to the "group" nature--
Star Trek, superheroes, some forms of fantasy, some military games.

Some genres seem antithetical to the concept of several equals
working conjunctively. Espionage-style games (and I'll include
Timemaster and Cyberpunk in this field), Cliffhangers-style heroics
(such as Indiana Jones), some forms of fantasy, and so on. There
are some genres which produce individual heroes more believably than
they do teams.

Cyberpunk is one of these. And I certainly agree that in order to
construct a plausible adventure, you must find slots for the 4-8
players that will work. Some possibilities have already been
discussed here:
1) Characters can be split off by specialization. The decker is
off in the Matrix, as the obvious example.
2) Multiple targets may require "hitting" at the same time, thus
splitting the team further. (Clever, if difficult, usage of this
could result in the separate-but-related storylines in Count Zero
and Mona Lisa Overdrive. This would probably work better on CIS
than ftf, though limited versions could be used successfully ftf.)

Campaigns, on the other hand, can definitely break down the
plausibility factor. One of the things the GM mentioned in the game
that started this thread was that our "group" had been together for
a few successful 'runs. It seems *possible* that a successful
strike team could go into business together, but since employers
tend to tailor their teams to meet the situation, it is unlikely.

What I favor instead is use of the same team in *one* adventure.
The next adventure would feature a different team, though run by the
same players, of course. For added interest, perhaps the second
team can consist of a few hold-overs from the first team. As you
can see, using this technique repeatedly will result in a "stable"
of several different characters per player, which can be mixed-and-
matched to form ideal sets for each particular scenario, while not
losing the transient feel of cyberpunk characters. (Notice the
roles of the Finn and Molly/Sally throughout Gibson's three books.)

In my opinion, cyberpunk is the most adult, most intense genre of
any yet covered by gaming. To preserve the feel and mature currents
of the books, extraordinary measures might be needed, as I've tried
to outline in this message.

Hope this gives people something to chew on.

Mes: 59326
Sub: 59204
From: just john 73310,1741 To: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344

Re groups in an ongoing cyberpunk campaign:

Once the PCs finish a run with any success, the GM could play it
that they had sorely vexed someone as a group, so they were being
hunted down as such. This would keep the PCs together, partially to
prevent being ratted out and partially to brainstorm and find out
who it is that's after them.

(Heck, you could skip the initial run.. In reading this thread and
the comments on the Meet Johnson At Bar Cliche, I flashed on this
twist of the hackneyed scene:

This particular Johnson has a drinking problem, so by the time the
team shows up, he's pretty well plowed, in a quiet but sullen way.
Immediately after the group and Mr. J get seated at a booth
together, he passes into that phase of inebriation where he starts
hollering about how great the world was before the Injuns and trolls
took over. This gets him thumped by more than a few patrons and
tossed out onto the street where a DocWagon(tm) picks him up and
rushes away. If the team (who, by the way, are left with Mr. J's
bar tab and a bill for damage to the bar) looks into it, they find
that it wasn't a REAL DocWagon...

After a bit, each of them notice they're being followed 'cuz it's
assumed that Mr. J signed them on for a job..)

Back to the matter at hand:

Another way to have several players continue in a cyberpunk campaign
would be to have each player have 3 or 4 PCs, but to use only one at
a time. This would give variety and continuity and permit character
development (I dunno, I'm just a sucker for that sorta stuff). It
would give the GM opportunities to work with players behind the
scenes to make one or two PCs REAL stinkers and to have this develop
over time without forcing any player to spend all his/her efforts
running a slimeball.

Mes: 59346
Sub: 59326
From: PaulMonty/MOTM 76347,1542 To: just john 73310,1741

I like that anti-cliche up there, but I always pictured most
Johnsons as sorta, I dunno, professional. (Although a newbie Johnson
could be good for a few laughs.) Maybe you'd have to claim somebody
spiked his sarsparilla or something . . .

Mes: 59358
Sub: 59346
From: just john 73310,1741 To: PaulMonty/MOTM 76347,1542

Well, one of the original Johnsons, Armitage of "Neuromancer" wasn't
all there..

Anyway, even the most polished corporate rep has gotta burn out
sometime..

Mes: 59311
Sub: How to be cyberpunk
From: Paul Floriani 72411,2270

On a new topic, related to groups of PC's...I think if we HAVE to
live with the concept of a group of 'punkers roaming the streets,
the GM gets to specify the templates/lifepaths/classes/whatever of
the characters. "Okay, I want at least one of these, only one of
this, this, and this, and none of the others." This goes well with
Jordan's idea with having a "stable" of characters to choose from
(actually, I'm not sure "stable" is the appropriate term for
characters...maybe one could refer to having a "bar" of characters
:). The simple truth is that not all character types fit in most
"good" cyberpunk adventures - obvious example in RTG rules: when
planning a pure stealth run, no media or rockerboys! :)

Mes: 59930
Sub: 59034
From: Beo,Les,Ama, et AL 73327,2455 To: Alex von Thorn/RPG SL
70411,351

I'm just jumping into the thread picking a message at random.

You all are to be greatly belabored about the head and sholders for
running this discussion when I am too busy to really participate!

I'm not even sure what direction it has taken since I'm 3 or 4 days
behind reading it. But I'm saving things up.

My 2 cents at the moment are that, while designers do not have a
responsiblity to enforce a genre, they do have a responsibility, as
do we all, to analyse the impact of their work.

There are PBM games that are a realistic modeling of gladitorial
combat, for example. The most successful player is the one whose
role-played characters are the most successful killers.

I have some problems with that as I do with games that are simply an
amorally applied bloodbath. That was the basis of my reaction to the
game Jordan described.

On the one hand, I don't buy the we're-just-reflecting-a-violent-
culture line, since our games, movies, books, jobs, and hobbies ARE
our culture. On the other hand, the long traditions of violence as
solution, sport, and even ecstacy has to be worked through and that
can't happen without talking violence. I don't think it possible to
work with the situation simplistically.

I do think it's quite clear that a game, movie, book, or whatever
that doesn't do anything with violence but wallow in it should be
called to task.

Cyberpunk might even be said to carry a particular responsibility
since its themes and neat weaponry tend to make the portrayal of
'realistic' violence even more alluring than other genres.

PS, Jordan, where do you find the stuff by this Dr Brooks Landon?

Mes: 60025
Sub: 59930
From: Jordan H. Orzoff 73617,3344 To: Beo,Les,Ama, et AL 73327,2455

I was privileged to be in two of his classes at Iowa: Modern
American Literature (which featured Bruce Sterling, J.G. Ballard,
Tom Stone, Dom DeLillo, Louise Erdrich, Maryanne Robinson, Lucius
Shepard, Kathy Acker, William S. Burroughs, music by Laurie
Anderson, the movies Radioactive Dreams and Videodrome, and lots of
other great stuff), and a class on Contemporary Science Fiction
Books and Films. Great stuff. He was going to teach Watchmen the
next year. I've seen and read some of his articles...I can't
remember where they were published, but you might try the library
periodical indices. University library would probably be best, as
I'm sure some of his articles are in literature journals.

Great guy. You've really got to admire someone who comes into class
with a stack of books and says "These are all so new that nobody has
determined the 'proper' interpretations of them. Some of them are
so new that I haven't even finished reading them. But I think that
they all have something important to say about contemporary
literature, and I think the twenty of you are bright enough to
figure out what that is."

Gives you a nice glow when you say something particularly insightful
and he jots it down in the margin to teach to his next class...

Now *that* is a teacher.